RE: Atheist vs. Agnostic

[i]Note to the Reader: I'm really sorry this post has grow so big, but this is a topic that fascinate me, from a theological, sociological and psychological point.[/i]

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[quote="MockingGods"]First of all, welcome to the Website Dhoo :D[/quote]
Thank you very much, I have enjoying my time around.
I have a mixture of feeling that you don't go with the #OpBlackOut, but it's nice to be posting today with so many sites down.

[quote="MockingGods"]It seems like you have a good idea of the difference between atheism and agnostism, and that you can be both at the same time.[/quote]
Again, thank you very much, I will take that as a compliment.

[quote="MockingGods"]If you do not believe in a god (deity), you are an atheist.[/quote]
You are absolutely right, I'm indeed an atheist. But, I think of myself more as a agnostic first and then a atheist.

** DISCLAIM: If you don't care abut this new guy who is posting (me), you can skip this answer entirely. **

And maybe the reason of this is in the story of how I become a agnostic/atheist. Unless most of the atheist I meet, I have never have a bad experiences with any kind of religion. From my mothers side, my grandpa is a hardcore atheist, my grandma is protestant; from my fathers side my grandma its a hardcore catholic and my grandpa it use to be a mason. My dad is a mason and my mom it use to be a new age/freethinker/fairy tale lover. So I don't grow up with the religion being a important part of my home. From kinder garden to high school I study in a catholic institute, and in there I find anything else then love to teaching, kindness and inspiration. I study the University in a ultra right winged a proud member of the Opus Dei, in here I find more rejection, but at this point I has my deepest believes very rooted in me. I even visit several jewish and muslims communities, and for my surprise the muslims where the more open, friendly and generous to teach me they beliefs and traditions.

At the age of 12, I was trying to find the meaning of my life, and answers the questions "why I'm here?", "what I'm suppose to do?", "from where I come and to where I will go after my life ends", but mainly I was REALLY trying to find evidences or something to hold on, so I could have real faith, (I have always being a weird kid). To achieve this I start reading all the greek/roman and classic philosophers I can find in my narrow environment, I was just 12 years old. I was already in a catholic school so it was just logic that I read the bible for the first time but not the last one, more like a novel then a book of wisdom but I read it anyway. From there I jump to learn all I could about the jews and the muslims. From there, I start to dig into the Asian religions like the next natural bump in the road of my autodidact theological studies. I even learn a great deal of pre-colombus religions in Mesoamerica (from the north of Mexico to the south, any other culture norther then that, it look to nomadic and barbaric to me).

By this point, I have studies so many beliefs that I was actually hide, in one my corner of my mind, trying to pick one religion as the "real" one. In the meanwhile, I learn that all the beliefs in general terms, say the same thing over, and over, and over: "love each other", "don't kill", "don't steal", "don't fuck with someone else partner". That make me think that maybe there is no real religion. I have learned also how much power a belief can generate, and how the humans as a whole, as a animal specie we need a alpha (shepherd/tlatoani/inca/tsar/king/pope/sah/kan/sultan/caliph/president) to make decisions for us, and how as intelligent specie we need a tangible set of rules to follow and conduct our life (of course they are exceptional peoples that don't need all this but they are the fewest).

We can talk of course about inherent ethic and moral, but in the end those also speak about: "love each other", "don't kill", "don't steal", "don't fuck with someone else partner". So, I realize maybe the religions are not the guidance dictate for god to the human, rather they are the natural evolution of the humans civilization, and the easiest way to bring order to co-existing in relative peace, with every time bigger population centers. So if the belief are there to try to civilize and (of course) control the human hordes, "where is god in this equation?", I ask myself. In this point, is where I start seriously reading atheist books and articles, by this moment it was the last few years of the late 90's and by then I have a permanent Internet connection just for myself, so I could learn a lot more, about a lot more beliefs, and the people who don't belief.

Later I enter in the university and the engineering degree, more then anything I have learn in the school before or after (I'm currently studding my PhD), molded the way my mind think and how I see my surroundings, (my city, country, planet, galaxy, universe, and on, and on). By this point you could say that I was already a atheist, and you would be absolutely right, by then I already don't believe in the existence of any kind of deity. That's because of my understanding of how the beliefs I have studies works, and what I have learn about the human nature by the experience in my life. But, I wanna remark this BUT, it was just a vague assumption more then a true way of see the human existences, just to not talk about the creation of the Universe.

It was not until I understand the fine and difficult relationship between the thousands of millions (in the English system that a billion, but in my country a billion, its a million of millions, which in the English system its a quintillion) of scientific data I have recollect through my life and my years in the school system and the very complex concept of the epistemology and theory of knowledge, which in a synthesis say that we really know shit about everything, that I actually find the logic of all this believing thing:
[list]1. There is no hardcore evidence of the existent of any human deity.
2. In a infinite Universe, at least mathematically, every thing its possible.
3. We don't know everything that there is out there to be know.
4. I actually don't need a deity at all.[/list]

I actually don't need a deity at all. No one "create" me beyond the mix of genetic code from my parents after they copulate. I plow my own land (its a metaphor, actually I don't own any kind of farm of any sort), there for, I don't need a supra being or beings to decide what's better for me. And if something good or bad happen to me, or someone I love, it's just a simple random chance or the natural result of my interaction with the rest of the human population and surrounding ecosystems, it's not a punishment (because very bad things happen to very good people), it's not a test, it's not karma, its something that just happen. So indeed I'm a atheist, but the reason why I can [u]understand[/u] and explain to others, and not just "believe" there is no god and why I'm a atheist, it's because I'm primarily a agnostic. If an angel or Jesus himself, appear to me right now and ask me to believe. Chances are that at least at first, I may think that I have lost my mind or I'm hallucinating, but after checking my mental state, I am willing to accept the possibility of that's being real, of that really happening and, finally believe.

Maybe that's make a weak fool, by the way, that actual one of the nicest insults I have receive from a atheist when I call myself a agnostic, and I can tell you have receive quite a bit. That's one reason this topic call my attention.

[quote="MockingGods"]No one "knows" a god exists, thus we're all agnostics. Atheism deals with belief, not knowledge.[/quote]
Actually, for a quiet a big part of the society that's not entirely true, and by this I'm referring to the believers (and with this I'm not talking about the fans of Justin Bieber). In the human mind, true it's not always a entirely clear concept. In most cases, is subjective, the true it's what you believe it's true. A paradigm, if you are wise, you can recognize when you are wrong and change that paradigm to embrace a new true, if you are not... Well, I think every body in this forum know what's happen when someone don't agree with you. For those who have faith, actually anyone who we can call a deist, are actually positive sure that they "know" god indeed exist, just because they have faith.

Even further, a lot of them "know" god exists because they can "feel it" inside of them, and at least for most of them that hardcore evidence, that all what they need to sustain they beliefs, they faith, and that something from what they can hold on, when themselves are not enough to face the problems or the adversity in life. Those I can call them a gnostic deist. Or in the case of the user NotSaved I have already call him a gnostic atheist, as someone who its certain without a doubt that there is no god (and with this label I don't mean ANY disrespect to him, or his belief at all, it was just a personal assessment. If I'm plain wrong, I apologize right now for any discomfort).

[quote="MockingGods"]This is the problem with the word "god".[/quote]
In this point I totally agreed with you, that's why in most of my post I use the term "deity" and not the plain "god". In my phrase you are quoting I plant in there the word god and not deity, because if such being exist at the light of our eyes can be see as "gods" but that's don't make the actual deities (creators of the original Cosmos and the Universe as a whole, creators of the original spark of life, being before time itself, etc.)

Atheist vs. Agnostic

I wanna clarify that this is purely my own point of view and I'm not claiming that I have the hard true or evidence beyond my own logic and the machine of my mind.

I will like to list some "trues":

• Disclaiming all the mythical sacred written texts or ancient oral traditions, beyond the pure and blind faith, there is no hardcore evidence of the existent of any human deity, fairy tale creature or lil kids wish dream (Santa Claus, the Sandman or the Tooth Fairy) or nightmare (the Monster in the Closet or the Evil Ice-cream Truck who sell hidden razor knifes). 
• The Universe is infinite. 
• In a infinite Universe, at least mathematically, every and I really meant EVERY thing its possible. 
• We live in a very tiny planet, in a very tiny galaxy, in a very peripheric side of the Knowledge Universe with a very narrow and limited view of our surroundings. 
• We don't know everything that there is out there to be know. 

Now I wanna start explained myself a bit. You have say several times that you have not encounter any evidence, or any sort, of the existence of any type of deity. And I believe you. I truly believe, that you have take the time to make a extensive travel around the globe, searching for the evidence for the answers to some of the most annoying repeat it question (and I'm talking in here about the theological ones). I myself have read the catholic and christian Bible several times, I have read the Torah and the Qur'an, I have practice Reiki and Hatha Yoga, I actually have found that one of the believes more annoying for me it's the Mahayana Buddhism.

But and I wanna capitalize that one as a really big BUT, we don't know everything. With enough time, patient and life, we can achieve to know a great many things, but we would never be able to know everything that there is to know, we are just physically incapable to do it. But we live in a infinite Universe, maybe in somewhere, out the in the immensity of the forever, there is actually a type of being or even a specie who really know its all, but by far we are not those. Maybe those we can call them god to our limited standards. In a infinite Universe, everything that you are capable to think about it is mathematically possible, and therefor you can not claim that such thing it doesn't exist.

Maybe we can narrow our sentences, to "I don't believe there is or there has being a pinkish winged uniform EVER, in the Planet we know as Earth." or maybe we can say "I'm positive sure that all the religions ever worship by the homo sapiens sapiens, in the Planet we know as Earth are anthropomorphic creations". But that sound rather large don't you think? Why not simply recognize the concept that we do not know everything, and everything is at least mathematically possible, and then give it a name? Well, for me that's being a Agnostic. I'm actually a Atheist also, because I don't need anybody to dictate the my path of my life, and that because I'm the one riding this bike (this is a rustic type of metaphor, in which the bike its actually my life/destiny), I don't need a big metahuman being to search/pray/seek to comforting me when I'm dislike with my own chooses, and because as a Environmental Engineer I understand at least the most common accepted principles by the Science Community of how the Universe works, and with that I don't need a deity at all.

In a conclusion, I don´t believe in any type of deity, but I can't assure myself that it is even possible that one actually exists.

NotSaved at least for me you sound so sure that there is no god, that you are maybe a Gnostic Atheist, if such thing it's even possible.

http://www.infidelguy.com/ftopicp-21521.html#21521

Que yo, como andante del sedero de la vida, ya estoy mas bien cansado de tener que recorrerlo siempre en solitario. Pero las tierras bajo mis pies ofrecen pocos frutos que no hayan sido ya tomados por alguien más o que estén dañados. Si hay algo que no soy es ladrón, por lo que los primeros están excluidos y por el otro lado tengo suficiente bagaje que cargar yo solo para agacharme a recoger los pedazos de alguien más.

@ramirosgv, 19/12/11 22:23

Ramiro Gomez (@ramirosgv) 19/12/11 22:23 Mi vida sueña a soñar que te sueño toda la vida.

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RAMIRO GÓMEZ

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How To Imagine The Tenth Dimension | Break.com

How To Imagine The Tenth Dimension - Watch MoreFunny Videos

A vs D?

Aunque en honor a la verdad es que no hay una verdadera pelea. Si D tuviera mas años el titulo seria suyo y si A viviera en Acapulco la cosa seria distinta.

Hoy estuve hablando con A y con D toda la tarde. La verdad es que por ambas siento un deseo animal, pero A vive en DF y D es nueve años mejor que yo y tiene novio.

Parece que esta será una noche mas de auto complacencia. Triste pero esta es una historia verídica.

Ella: Soy miope del corazón.
Yo: Si quieres te presto mis lentes, pero me tienes que tomar de la mano para no tropezarme.

@ramirosgv, 13/12/11 22:33

Ramiro Gomez (@ramirosgv) 13/12/11 22:33 Hagamos un juego más entretenido.

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RAMIRO GÓMEZ

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@ramirosgv, 13/12/11 22:50

Ramiro Gomez (@ramirosgv) 13/12/11 22:50 Querido Santa: Este año he sido un niño muy bueno. De Navidad, solo quiero una novia con un minimo de un año de garantía. Atte. Ramiro Gómez

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RAMIRO GÓMEZ

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Primera Cita (opcional) – Mientras más larga tu descripción, mayor posibilidad de obtener respuestas.

Ya que las citas por Internet son una apuesta al aire. Lo más probable es que estaría nervioso.

Llegaría a la puerta de su casa, y yo como todo un caballero que soy me bajaría a tocar el timbre. Si aun no esta lista o vive con algún miembro de su familia, me gustaría pasar al interior de la casa y tal vez sentarme en la sala a platicar con quien me abrió.

Una vez que ella esta lista, y ojalá yo haya causado una buena impresión al tercero con el que he interactuado. El próximo paso sería abrirle la puerta de mi carro. Una vez adentro iríamos a cenar a alguno de mis restaurante favoritos.

Nota: He de aclarar que como es la primer cita, no voy a pretender saber que es lo que ella le gusta así que me arriesgaré e iremos a donde a mi me gusta.

Después de unos dos platillos que incluirían un entremés al centro elegido por los dos, un plato fuerte y postres elegido por cada uno de nosotros, aunque en caso de que ella nunca haya estado en ese restaurante, si me lo permite, le haría sugerencia de que es lo que yo pienso esta sabroso en ese lugar particular.

Una vez terminada la cena y pagada la cuesta por mi, si todo fue bien, la platica estuvo animada y soy capaz de captar el interés en sus ojos, le preguntaría si le gustaría tomar algo o que si debo de llevarla de una vez a su casa.

En caso de que yo notara interés pero aun así la llevara a su casa, esperaría a oír la razón por la cual desea terminar la noches, aunque jamás yo le preguntaría. Si la respuesta esta relacionada con el trabajo o algún miembro de la familia, me quedaría contento, si solo esta "cansada" se que la noche fue un fracaso.

En caso de que ella desease seguir la noche y tomar algo, le preguntaría si tiene algún lugar que a ella le guste particularmente o si debería de elegir yo. Una vez en el lugar, depende el ambiente del mismo, si ella fuma o no, tal vez yo preferiría sentarnos en la terraza en donde se puede platicar mejor.

Por lo menos en la primer cita, a menos que sea amor a primera vista, o una salvaje atracción animal, si se puede evitar, no creo que debería de terminar después de las dos de la mañana, como mucho para dejarla en la puerta de su casa.

En caso que viviera sola o que tuviera su área privada en su casa compartida y me invitara a pasar, yo estaría 100% seguro que la noche fue un éxito y aquí hay futuro. Si no me invita a pasar, pero parece feliz y satisfecha, definitivamente la volvería a invitar a salir y ya solo el tiempo dirá.

Estoy escribiendo una novela de amor. Ya sé... me gusta la ciencia ficción.

Elévate sublime por encima de todos tus tropiezos, eres un hermoso deseo, pensamiento, una voz que susurra sus lamentos al viento.

Somos esclavos de los personajes que nosotros mismos nos imponemos.

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Eterno

Definitivamente es una grosería retirarse a esta hora no es ni la media noche, pero la verdad es que el ambiente esta de la chingada y yo tengo mucho sueño. El día de
Ayer dormí muy mal.

Lo que hace uno por los compromisos sociales. Hoy debe de ser el día mas feliz de las vidas de E y C, como para preocuparse del amigo que tiene mucho sueñito como para aguantar la noche entera.

Sinceramente tengo el mas ferviente deseo de echar desmadre y pasarmela chingón pero me falta energía.

Nota: justo en este instante vino mi hermana a invitarme a bailar como pendejo, literalmente chistoso, en la pista de baile.

A darle!

Baño

La misa estuvo bonita, en la bellísima capilla de la Paz, pero un poco mas bien larga. Para cuando finalmente termino lo demonios ya están pululando por los poros de mi Hna.

La boda es en un centro de eventos bastante grande y muy conocido en Puebla, el salón esta mas bien pequeño, si tal ve no somos ni 200 personas pero el servicio es bueno, amable y rápido.

Después de unas hermosas palabras de un señor que la verdad es que no tengo muy en claro quien es, los novios bailaron su primer vals, seguido de una inmensa marabunta que se arremolinaba y apiñonaba en una inmensa cola de danzantes ansioso de tener su oportunidad con los recién casados.

Me parece que no esta de mas decir que no me uní al escuadrón suicida que se lanzo sobre la pista como representante de todos los que veníamos solteros y no podíamos apañar a esposo y esposa. Así que me quede orbitado por ahí.

Después de trescientos platos de comida que tal vez no sea una fabulosa selección de platillos gourmet, si por lo menos era mucho. Fueron ocho platos programados para el menú bien servidos, de los que solo me comí cuatro.

Debido a una urgencia de mi sistema digestivo actualmente me encuentro encerrado en el WC dejando fluir libre mi alma por en medio de mis dulces posaderas.

No acepten imitaciones, yo ya soy muy barato.

Dormir

Cuando me pregunten como dormí, que respuesta debo de dar, la del buen huésped o la verdad?

Desayuno, postre y unas copitas!

Pues la Peluda y yo nos levantamos a las 9 de la mañana. Pero después de una rápida inspección de las inmediaciones rebelo, o por lo menos eso fue lo que pensamos, que no había nadie despierto.

Como a las diez nos hartamos de estar en la cama horrible que RO nos proporciono para pernoctar y comenzamos a prender el boiler para poder bañáramos y comenzar nuestra nuestro día.

Una vez que nos bañamos comenzaron a salir los habitantes de la casa que uno llevaba despierto desde las 7am y el otro salió a correr desde las 9am en punto. Cuando finalmente estuvimos todos listos fuimos a comer comida de gordos.

Después de una quesadilla de quesillo y flor de calabaza, mas una gordita con queso y cebolla estuvimos listos para comenzar nuestro día. Fuimos a mercería de RO y ya que estañamos allá fuimos a comer un postresito.

Ya que acabamos nos dirigimos a comenzar el día com unos drinks!

Nota: Se me acaba la pila!

Es como la soledad, pero sin ella. Es tu ausencia.