RE: Atheist vs. Agnostic

[i]Note to the Reader: I'm really sorry this post has grow so big, but this is a topic that fascinate me, from a theological, sociological and psychological point.[/i]

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[quote="MockingGods"]First of all, welcome to the Website Dhoo :D[/quote]
Thank you very much, I have enjoying my time around.
I have a mixture of feeling that you don't go with the #OpBlackOut, but it's nice to be posting today with so many sites down.

[quote="MockingGods"]It seems like you have a good idea of the difference between atheism and agnostism, and that you can be both at the same time.[/quote]
Again, thank you very much, I will take that as a compliment.

[quote="MockingGods"]If you do not believe in a god (deity), you are an atheist.[/quote]
You are absolutely right, I'm indeed an atheist. But, I think of myself more as a agnostic first and then a atheist.

** DISCLAIM: If you don't care abut this new guy who is posting (me), you can skip this answer entirely. **

And maybe the reason of this is in the story of how I become a agnostic/atheist. Unless most of the atheist I meet, I have never have a bad experiences with any kind of religion. From my mothers side, my grandpa is a hardcore atheist, my grandma is protestant; from my fathers side my grandma its a hardcore catholic and my grandpa it use to be a mason. My dad is a mason and my mom it use to be a new age/freethinker/fairy tale lover. So I don't grow up with the religion being a important part of my home. From kinder garden to high school I study in a catholic institute, and in there I find anything else then love to teaching, kindness and inspiration. I study the University in a ultra right winged a proud member of the Opus Dei, in here I find more rejection, but at this point I has my deepest believes very rooted in me. I even visit several jewish and muslims communities, and for my surprise the muslims where the more open, friendly and generous to teach me they beliefs and traditions.

At the age of 12, I was trying to find the meaning of my life, and answers the questions "why I'm here?", "what I'm suppose to do?", "from where I come and to where I will go after my life ends", but mainly I was REALLY trying to find evidences or something to hold on, so I could have real faith, (I have always being a weird kid). To achieve this I start reading all the greek/roman and classic philosophers I can find in my narrow environment, I was just 12 years old. I was already in a catholic school so it was just logic that I read the bible for the first time but not the last one, more like a novel then a book of wisdom but I read it anyway. From there I jump to learn all I could about the jews and the muslims. From there, I start to dig into the Asian religions like the next natural bump in the road of my autodidact theological studies. I even learn a great deal of pre-colombus religions in Mesoamerica (from the north of Mexico to the south, any other culture norther then that, it look to nomadic and barbaric to me).

By this point, I have studies so many beliefs that I was actually hide, in one my corner of my mind, trying to pick one religion as the "real" one. In the meanwhile, I learn that all the beliefs in general terms, say the same thing over, and over, and over: "love each other", "don't kill", "don't steal", "don't fuck with someone else partner". That make me think that maybe there is no real religion. I have learned also how much power a belief can generate, and how the humans as a whole, as a animal specie we need a alpha (shepherd/tlatoani/inca/tsar/king/pope/sah/kan/sultan/caliph/president) to make decisions for us, and how as intelligent specie we need a tangible set of rules to follow and conduct our life (of course they are exceptional peoples that don't need all this but they are the fewest).

We can talk of course about inherent ethic and moral, but in the end those also speak about: "love each other", "don't kill", "don't steal", "don't fuck with someone else partner". So, I realize maybe the religions are not the guidance dictate for god to the human, rather they are the natural evolution of the humans civilization, and the easiest way to bring order to co-existing in relative peace, with every time bigger population centers. So if the belief are there to try to civilize and (of course) control the human hordes, "where is god in this equation?", I ask myself. In this point, is where I start seriously reading atheist books and articles, by this moment it was the last few years of the late 90's and by then I have a permanent Internet connection just for myself, so I could learn a lot more, about a lot more beliefs, and the people who don't belief.

Later I enter in the university and the engineering degree, more then anything I have learn in the school before or after (I'm currently studding my PhD), molded the way my mind think and how I see my surroundings, (my city, country, planet, galaxy, universe, and on, and on). By this point you could say that I was already a atheist, and you would be absolutely right, by then I already don't believe in the existence of any kind of deity. That's because of my understanding of how the beliefs I have studies works, and what I have learn about the human nature by the experience in my life. But, I wanna remark this BUT, it was just a vague assumption more then a true way of see the human existences, just to not talk about the creation of the Universe.

It was not until I understand the fine and difficult relationship between the thousands of millions (in the English system that a billion, but in my country a billion, its a million of millions, which in the English system its a quintillion) of scientific data I have recollect through my life and my years in the school system and the very complex concept of the epistemology and theory of knowledge, which in a synthesis say that we really know shit about everything, that I actually find the logic of all this believing thing:
[list]1. There is no hardcore evidence of the existent of any human deity.
2. In a infinite Universe, at least mathematically, every thing its possible.
3. We don't know everything that there is out there to be know.
4. I actually don't need a deity at all.[/list]

I actually don't need a deity at all. No one "create" me beyond the mix of genetic code from my parents after they copulate. I plow my own land (its a metaphor, actually I don't own any kind of farm of any sort), there for, I don't need a supra being or beings to decide what's better for me. And if something good or bad happen to me, or someone I love, it's just a simple random chance or the natural result of my interaction with the rest of the human population and surrounding ecosystems, it's not a punishment (because very bad things happen to very good people), it's not a test, it's not karma, its something that just happen. So indeed I'm a atheist, but the reason why I can [u]understand[/u] and explain to others, and not just "believe" there is no god and why I'm a atheist, it's because I'm primarily a agnostic. If an angel or Jesus himself, appear to me right now and ask me to believe. Chances are that at least at first, I may think that I have lost my mind or I'm hallucinating, but after checking my mental state, I am willing to accept the possibility of that's being real, of that really happening and, finally believe.

Maybe that's make a weak fool, by the way, that actual one of the nicest insults I have receive from a atheist when I call myself a agnostic, and I can tell you have receive quite a bit. That's one reason this topic call my attention.

[quote="MockingGods"]No one "knows" a god exists, thus we're all agnostics. Atheism deals with belief, not knowledge.[/quote]
Actually, for a quiet a big part of the society that's not entirely true, and by this I'm referring to the believers (and with this I'm not talking about the fans of Justin Bieber). In the human mind, true it's not always a entirely clear concept. In most cases, is subjective, the true it's what you believe it's true. A paradigm, if you are wise, you can recognize when you are wrong and change that paradigm to embrace a new true, if you are not... Well, I think every body in this forum know what's happen when someone don't agree with you. For those who have faith, actually anyone who we can call a deist, are actually positive sure that they "know" god indeed exist, just because they have faith.

Even further, a lot of them "know" god exists because they can "feel it" inside of them, and at least for most of them that hardcore evidence, that all what they need to sustain they beliefs, they faith, and that something from what they can hold on, when themselves are not enough to face the problems or the adversity in life. Those I can call them a gnostic deist. Or in the case of the user NotSaved I have already call him a gnostic atheist, as someone who its certain without a doubt that there is no god (and with this label I don't mean ANY disrespect to him, or his belief at all, it was just a personal assessment. If I'm plain wrong, I apologize right now for any discomfort).

[quote="MockingGods"]This is the problem with the word "god".[/quote]
In this point I totally agreed with you, that's why in most of my post I use the term "deity" and not the plain "god". In my phrase you are quoting I plant in there the word god and not deity, because if such being exist at the light of our eyes can be see as "gods" but that's don't make the actual deities (creators of the original Cosmos and the Universe as a whole, creators of the original spark of life, being before time itself, etc.)